March 2023
In the third episode of our “In Conversation with...” podcast series for 2023, Lucy Lewis, Partner at Lewis Silkin LLP, speaks to Philip Ross, Founder and CEO of UnGroup and Cordless Group and Jeremy Myerson, Director of WORKTECH Academy.
Jeremy and Philip recently co-authored the book ‘Unworking: The Reinvention of the Modern Office’ and, in this episode, they share their insights into the future of the office. Philip and Jeremy consider the habits and rituals we will need to ‘unlearn’ in order to reimagine the workplace of the future, with a particular focus on rethinking both learning and leadership, as well as how to make the workplace as inclusive as possible.
Key takeaways from the conversation:
- Leadership is being reimagined: Leadership will be less focussed on presenteeism and more focussed on outputs and purpose. Leaders must drive a sense of purpose and belonging, and organisations will need to rethink their physical spaces to align with this vision.
- Space will no longer define status: While workspace does not dictate culture, it reinforces and supports it. Organisations are moving away from the idea of modern efficiency – rectangular spaces in box-like buildings – towards more democratic spaces, such as circular and curvilinear spaces.
- Workplace experience is key: Companies need to take workplace experience seriously. Many are introducing workplace experience apps to enhance workplace experience and drive a sense of purpose and belonging.
- Office design should support diversity and inclusion: A diverse workforce has diverse needs, and employees may work best in different conditions and environments. To be truly inclusive, the workplace of the future must be heterogeneous and provide employees with genuine choice and variety.
- Organisations need to rethink learning: Hybrid working has resulted in a rapid shift away from the ‘eavesdropping’ model of learning, requiring companies to rethink their current practices and invest in new and emerging technologies.
In Conversation with…Jeremy Myerson & Philip Ross
Season 3: Episode 3
Lucy Lewis: Hello and welcome to the Future of Work Hub’s “In Conversation with…” podcast. I’m Lucy Lewis, a partner in Lewis Silkin’s employment team, and in this podcast series I’ll be hosting exclusive discussions with innovators, business leaders and thought leaders to explore their perspectives on the longer term trends and immediate drivers shaping the world of work. Now we know the pandemic was a catalyst for accelerating significant change in the world of work and office closures meant that during periods of lockdown there was a wholesale shake up in working practices and, as business have emerged from the pandemic, what we’ve seen is office based employers have started to experiment and explore new ways of working and we’ve seen an increasing number of employers adopting mostly hybrid, but in some cases, totally remote models of working. But there is one really big question that endures in all of that and that’s “what is the future of the office?”. What role should the office play in supporting these new ways of working?
And I’m really fortunate today to have with me two people that are ideally placed to answer that question. I’m joined by somebody I’ve known for a very long time Philip Ross, Founder and CEO of Ungroup and Cordless Group and Jeremy Myerson, Director of WORKTECH Academy. Philip specialises in predicting the impact of digital disruption and new technology on the way we work, but also how we shop, how we learn and he’s advised organisations such as McKinsey, Marks and Spencer, Barclays, the BBC on innovation and future workplace concepts.
Jeremy is an academic researcher. He’s an author and activist in workplace design and innovation. He holds the Helen Hamlin Chair of Design at The Royal College of Art and he’s a visiting Fellow at the University of Oxford. And last year, Jeremy and Philip put their brilliant minds together and authored a really fascinating book, ‘Unworking: The Reinvention of the Modern Office’. And the book focuses on the post-pandemic workplace, it presents a manifesto for unworking. Unlearning old habits, old rituals, things that were established for an outdated office and creating new ones. New things that reflect an age of digital technology of design innovation and, of course, diversity in workforces. And after taking us through a sort of 100 year history and journey of the development of the modern office, the book lands in the near future and it includes a series of predictions about how our workplaces might become more human centred, more social, more sustainable. It’s really interesting - I’d encourage everybody to read it. But, in the meantime, I’m delighted Jeremy and Philip to welcome you to the podcast and have an opportunity to talk to you about it. Welcome.
Jeremy Myerson: Thank you very much.
Philip Ross: Thank you, Lucy. A pleasure to be here.
“Unworking”: re-assessing the effectiveness and meaning of the office
Lucy Lewis: Now the central event in the book is the pandemic and the pandemic shuts offices and that forces lots of us, probably all three of us, to work from home. And as we've emerged from the pandemic and we've had time to adjust to new ways of working, people have started to sort of consider more, evaluate more, whether their physical workspaces and their physical working practices, whether those things are fit for purpose. And there's lots and lots for us to discuss here today, but I thought a good place to start would be for you to explain this concept of “unworking” and give us a flavour of the key areas where you think businesses need to unlearn and reimagine the workplace of the future.
Jeremy Myerson: Well Lucy the book “unworking” is not about literally not working. It's about unravelling how we work and we have a definition for unworking which is really about unbundling our assumptions about the modern office. Unlearning the habits and rituals that have defined our behaviour at work. Really challenging everything we know about work and the workplace and trying to come up with new ways of working. So, there are lots of places and practices which need to be challenged and, in the book, we itemise and discuss and dissect quite a number of them.
Philip Ross: And I think Jeremy, to kind of to add to the idea of the definition of unworking, we also looked at the idea of a few “unlearnings”. I think, you know, pre-pandemic for many organisations or firms, it was almost unthinkable to work anywhere but the office and, of course, we all pivoted to something very different. And now we're trying to reimagine what the future looks like. People are trying to experiment with hybrid. Most organisations and firms are talking that people are coming back two/three days a week. And so, we're thinking about the idea that the office is no longer the only place of work as we now know, but there's also a continuum of spaces. It's not just “home and office”, the binary kind of polar extremes. But there's now a continuum and we explore that.
We explore, of course, experience because, for the first time ever, people are being asked to make decisions, you know, when to come into the office and if so, who else will be there and what kind of space they're going to get to work in. And I think also we're seeing the idea that workplaces will become intelligent. I mean Lucy, offices have always been what I would call dumb containers for work. And now with technology they can be real-time containers. Real-time real estate is now with us and the data that that creates allows us to shape experience but also make more informed decisions and I think also we're seeing, as you mentioned diversity, people embrace true diversity and inclusion. We had before a very homogeneous workplace. You know, one size- fits all. I think now, with choice and variety, we can really truly celebrate difference. So I think unworking has a range of ingredients and unlearnings that we need to focus on.
How businesses can unleash the potential to reimagine work
Lucy Lewis: That's really helpful and it's great scene setting and there are…there's a lot more detail obviously in the book. There were three unlearnings I thought it would be useful to focus the discussion around in the time that we've got and I'm going to start by exploring a bit about this idea of rethinking learning. And then you've talked about workplace experience, or working experience and inclusion, it would be good to talk a bit more about those.
But if we start with this idea of learning or unlearning, because one of the things that happened with the pandemic is we saw this sort of very, very rapid shift to hybrid working and it's only now that we're starting to really consider what some of the barriers are to that. And one of the assumptions that I think keeps coming up is that there's an idea that it's important for employees to be physically present in the office, particularly so that more junior staff can learn from senior people and because that sort of builds knowledge, but it also builds this idea of social capital, cultural capital and so that kind of informal knowledge acquisition. You kind of need people to be together. You need them to be in one place. You need them to overhear conversations, how they interact with their colleagues, how they might interact with clients and replicating that sort of informal type of learning is something that we hear continually as a challenge of the hybrid model. Particularly if you're in a creative or ideas business, or a business like ours, a sort of knowledge business but for lawyers. And I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on that. How can employers address that challenge?
Jeremy Myerson: I think the challenge of relearning learning is one of the big aspects of unworking and lawyers are very interested in bringing people back to the office, so are the large banks and that's because there's been a model of training and mentoring where junior members of the team eavesdrop. They look over the shoulder of senior partners often in open plan space. But increasingly, as we move into a hybrid world that model is looking pretty dated and there are technologies, immersive technologies that are developing. There are new ways of learning. If one looks at education for example, and looks particularly at medical education, you've got a series of new innovations coming through. Holo Human is one we discuss, which is a 3D model of human anatomy and medical students can learn virtually through immersive experiences. And it's a new way of learning and bringing everyone into the office and co-locating them is very good for social capital but it's not always great in terms of a workforce that is going to be working in a hybrid future.
So we've got to rethink how we pull these things together and it's a challenge for traditional firms and it's one of the biggest drivers of getting people back to the office. But we really do need to take the new technological opportunities that are going to be open to us.
Philip Ross: And you're right Jeremy. I think you touch on the fact that professional firms rely on the kind of intergenerational workplace, you know, juniors learning from seniors, the kind of mentorship/apprenticeship trainee model and as Lucy, as you said, you know it's about osmosis, it's about eavesdropping, it's the informal as well as the formal.
But I think there's a number of forces at play from our perspective. I think that we're seeing desire to come back vary by not just kind of demographics, when you were born, the kind of classic cohorts, but stage in life. Young people in their twenties see the office as a social place. Others in their mid-thirties, perhaps with young children who've moved further out of the city, see the commute as a kind of a hindrance and therefore the earning of the commute varies by your life stage. And therefore, there is a challenge for how you achieve learning and development.
But we also see the idea that technology in network strength. You mentioned social capital Lucy. Social capital can now be measured of course and the platforms we're using, Microsoft 365, can see the kind of network, the network strength and can course correct. You can bring people back who are isolated. You can reinforce strengths or network ties that should be there which are not apparent. So therefore, again, we can begin to engineer serendipity and just not leave it to chance.
Jeremy Myerson: I think you're right Philip. In terms of the different demographic impulses in relation to their relationship with the office but, actually, learning and development is a universal thing right the way through your career. The whole essence of knowledge work is that knowledge workers update their knowledge and I think that we've got to look at new formats and practices, and this whole idea of everyone back in the office and it's face-to-face and over the shoulder, I think we're going to see rapidly a move away from that model. There'll be some of that, but it will be augmented by these newer forms of technology.
The future of work is forcing an evolution in leadership
Lucy Lewis: And it is fascinating to have these conversations for me because, the idea of how technology is changing the workplace and this concept of learning and, that's something that's come through a number of the podcasts I've done. I spoke last year to Elizabeth Bieniek, she's the Director of Innovation at Cisco, and we were talking about using you know photorealistic holograms in the workplace, that makes this person that you sort of see through the computer, it makes them feel more human. And that's a really critical part of how people engage. I think it's fascinating.
I'm going to sort of meander us around a bit because there's such a lot to cover and the other thing that keeps coming up, when we look at the challenges of hybrid working, is leadership and what's the role of leadership? How is leadership challenged by this new way of working? Do we need to think what it means to be a leader? Do we need to rethink the role of managers?. And I'd be really interested in your perspectives on how you think leadership is evolving. You know, what management practices we need to unlearn or reimagine for this new future workplace.
Philip Ross: Well, I think it's interesting that we're seeing the idea that watching the backs of people's heads can no longer be the only way to manage and I think leaders can respect and understand that. I think that you know what we're finding is that there's a kind of reimagining and a re-embracing paternalism. The idea that, actually, you need to be intentional. People need purpose. And, therefore, we're seeing organisations reimagine why one comes to the workplace and what more one gets out of that commute and that commitment. So leadership is less around presenteeism and much more about results and outputs and purpose. And I think what we're finding as a result is people are rethinking the physical space to align with that vision. You come in not just for the work aspects, but for the social aspects of being in the same organisation. So we're seeing new amenity in the office that doesn't drive individual activity, let's say working out in a gym, but drives collective activity, let's say singing in a choir. And so therefore leadership is about driving that kind of sense of purpose and belonging and that involves shaping experience which I think is a very new area of innovation that leaders will need to both understand and then embrace.
Jeremy Myerson: I would add to that, the observation that leadership is very difficult right now. Leaders feel a bit lost. We're in a transitional period and there was a study by Gallup last year which showed the extent of manager burnout, and also a crisis in middle managers who've been leaving in their droves.
There was also a report called ‘The State of the Manager’, which said that being a leader right now is more challenging and less rewarding than ever before and more exhausting. So, what are we going to do about it? And I think that we need to move away to a much more fluid organisational structure and there are companies who are piloting this. They're not thinking in terms of hierarchy or the stratification of the physical workplace as a reflection of the management structures. But they're looking at a more fluid work environment that is governed by a more self-governing form of practices.
So there's all kinds of things going on in companies who are really piloting the future. And a bit like learning, leadership is on the cusp of something new and different and it's not in terms of leadership. It's not just about you know using new technologies in new ways it's also about reviving some age-old skills like listening, like empathy, like showing some compassion and I think that the way companies…a lot of corporate organisations, the way they've been structured has led to poor management. There was a management crisis before the pandemic. The pandemic has brought it out into the open and given us the opportunity to unlearn, to unwork these structures and come up with something new, that's flatter, that's more boundaryless, that enables people to work in the way they want to work.
How physical space can be an important part of defining team culture
Lucy Lewis: That's really interesting Jeremy, because one of the things that I think is interesting to our readers is that the sort of traditional workspace, you kind of defined your status by your space. How important you were depended on how big your office was, where you were sat, you know, how close you were to a window in some organisations. And I'm interested to hear you talk about this sort of concept of space being used differently, not necessarily so reflective of status, but what's the purpose of it. Do you think that's going to drive change in how people perceive leaders?
Jeremy Myerson: Well, I think workspace doesn't necessarily dictate the culture of an organisation, but it does reinforce it and support it. And I think what we're seeing, and I've been discovering this from talking to our members around the WORKTECH Academy network, is that we're moving away now from this idea of modern efficiency. Rectangular spaces in box-like buildings. You know, we all know the glass box meeting room where somebody's at the head of the meeting. We're seeing a lot more use of the circle, of curvilinear spaces, which are more democratic. You know, horseshoe layouts for meetings and campsite setups, and so there's a kind of more democratic exchange of views.
This is subtle but it's showing a different type of leadership inside organisations. The use of space and the use of form is actually a very real and tangible manifestation of what the culture of the organisation is all about.
Philip Ross: But Lucy, you also hit on a very important point. That we are beginning to see the separation of space and status and, indeed, the move to unassigned space where people don't have their own desk or office and that's right across the spectrum. We're seeing law firms adopt shared workspace all the way through to banks, technology firms, pharmaceutics for the first time ever, and we're in all sorts of interesting conversations. People are saying to me, how do we do this, do we make people reserve or book a desk? If so, is it a kind of unloved, anonymous bit of furniture or is there something different. How do we enable the kind of consolidation, the densification of the workplace, which is important if we're only using it for a few hours a week, so that's a space saving and therefore a cost saving and also a sustainability paradigm. But if we're not going to give people space and it doesn't necessarily reflect status, then what is the next phase of evolution?
How businesses are enticing employees back to the office
Lucy Lewis: It is really fascinating to talk through how space can be a really important part of defining your culture. A manifestation of your culture and it's a really helpful gateway into the one other thing I wanted to cover in the time that we've got. And, you know, we've seen this idea of culture, of purpose. We've seen that move up the agenda and I've spoken about it quite a lot on this podcast but, in relation to the office space, it really brings to mind a conversation I have with one of my guests last year, Derek Newberry, he's the Senior Director of the Co-Collective’s Org and Culture Design Practice, and he had this great hope for the workplace of the future which was, people would be coming to the office because they wanted to come, not because they felt somehow they needed to be there, or they were expected to be there. And that's obviously a really admirable ambition, but we know from the people we speak to, and I'm sure it's the same with the people that you speak to, but actually encouraging people into the office, that's still a really big challenge for lots of employers. And we also have this sort of worry that studies have shown us that certain groups, often women, minority ethnic employees, often they have a greater preference for working from home and then that raises questions about proximity bias. It raises issues around inclusion.
So I'm really interested to hear your insights on how we can get to that place where people are coming in because they really want to be there. They're actively choosing to come to the office, it's an important part of the culture.
Jeremy Myerson: Well, I think the first step towards that Lucy is acknowledging that experience, how people feel about the office, is as important as process, what people do in the office. And we now know that the office is no longer a place or even a process, it is an experience, and companies are now beginning to take the whole idea of workplace experience more seriously. And that poses a challenge to the way that organisations are wired up because experience is a mix of what you do at the personnel level, people policies, involves technology, whether it's seamless whether it's accessible, and it involves space. And what have companies done traditionally, they've had an IT Department, an HR Department and a Facilities Department. And so now we're beginning to see these three silos you know opening out, coming together, to try and provide a kind of much more unified service experience. A seamless experience for employees and we're also seeing new job titles emerging in the workforce.
Philip and I have been collecting these. Chief Experience Officer (or CXO), Head of Team Anywhere, Chief Heart Officer, Head of Dynamic Work. These are just some of the new job titles that are popping up inside large organisations, but it does reflect a move away from efficiency to expression and to experience.
Philip Ross: I think to add Lucy that, I think your point around this…what we call it is magnetising versus mandating. You know, there's the Elon Musk view of the world. The “Muscovites” who are forcing people to come back to an office and the more interesting approach which is magnetising, you know making people want to come back in. And there's some interesting research again in the Academy, that Jeremy has referenced, that talks to those resolute returners versus the choice champions and the other ways we've dissected the various options that are out there for firms and organisations.
But the last thought I wanted to share with people is that experience can be shaped, and we're seeing most of our clients wanting to now adopt and select and implement a workplace experience app. You know we all love and use our apps on our mobile phones, well the workplace app market is booming. We have inside the business an app consulting group and there's about 30 or 40 apps now that are helping to shape workplace experience and that's not just about “can I book a desk?”, it's about well…when should I go into the office? Who else will be there on that day and what kind of space should we use and sit in together? What else is going on?
Now although it's much more self-service today the near future will now be around nudges and suggestions. We're going to see the use of artificial intelligence and machine learning. So, very soon the app will suggest “Lucy look, the best day next week to go in will be Wednesday. Most of your team is in, there's a talk about a particular subject and there's after work drinks” and therefore it will help shape the experience you want, help shape the reason to go back in and that magnetism will be there to drive purpose, belonging, experience, and that activation we're all looking for.
Jeremy Myerson: And it's not just a story of apps and AI. The architectural level of creating experience, there is going to be experience master planning. There's going to be experience mapping. We're going to take the spatial techniques of retail and hospitality and already people are saying that the most important document in designing office space is not going to be the space plan, but it's going to be the storyboard invented nearly 100 years ago by Walt Disney. This shows animation. This shows the movement of characters through a series of spaces, and this is very important. The idea of storyboarding the future of the office is very different from space planning, which is sitting people down at desks. But it's a more dynamic form of design, but it does reflect what we're going to see in the future.
The future of work – what is missing from the current conversation?
Lucy Lewis: Thank you both. It's really fascinating and particularly talking through what we can expect for the workplace and how, actually, the workplace is a really, really important part of our culture. It's an important part of bringing people together and that, although a lot of things are changing and there's a huge investment in technology, that there is still a place for the workplace in the future of work, and that's been really fascinating.
Before we finish, there's one question…I've been asking this of all the guests on our podcast series, and that's that, over the last few years we've seen the spotlight shine on the future of work, we've seen the myriad of opportunities and challenges that lie ahead, but what I'd like to hear from the two of you is, what you think is missing from that conversation. What do you think isn't getting enough attention or why do you think that's important?
Philip Ross: Well, I think Lucy that it's a difficult one. There are quite a few things I feel are not being given the attention, but the one I'll choose is really kind of back to diversity and in inclusivity especially. I think that, you know where almost every firm and organisation has that as a core corporate value and people try and recruit to meet those values, we then seem to park that value at the front door of our buildings and build a one-size fits-all workplace. The same lighting levels, the same noise levels, the same temperature, same desking and furniture and, in effect, we ignore the benefits of diversity. You know, whether it's neurodiversity or cognitive diversity, and I think we need to now celebrate difference. Whether it's somebody who has a need for a different temperature, and we well know that that males and females work best in different temperatures. Whether it's the ability to show that there's a good quality of an environment. Whether there's the ability to personalise through adopting different light levels, whether it's because of your eyesight or because of the way you like to work. That, to me, is the missing ingredient. A workplace that's no longer homogeneous but truly heterogeneous and that provides choice and variety.
Jeremy Myerson: Yeah, I agree with Philip. I think the whole issue around inclusion and diversity is coming up the agenda but rather slowly. There's a wonderful definition of diversity as, you know, counting the people and inclusion, about making people count, and I think we're doing better on diversity, but we've got to make the people count.
Lucy Lewis: That’s a really, really lovely thought to end with. Very, very powerful. Thank you both so much.
If you're listening and you'd like to find out more about WORKTECH Academy headed by Jeremy you can visit worktechacademy.com; and to learn more about the Unwork Consulting Group headed by Philip you can visit unwork.com.
You can also purchase Jeremy and Phillip’s book “Unworking: the Reinvention of the Modern Office” on Amazon as well as at WHSmith and at Waterstones.
Thank you both very much indeed.
Jeremy Myerson: Thank you, Lucy.
Lewis Silkin’s Real Estate team have shared their thoughts on this podcast around whether physical offices are still fit for purpose and what we can expect in the future of the office space - click here to read more.